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  • William just wrapped up and William (stranger) is getting creepier and creepier.

    Shernold Edwards live-tweeted and is sticking around for west coasters so go, tweet @shernoldevans and ask her questions or just freak out over the toothy William. Also, reminder, Canada just got Season 5 of Haven tonight so please, label discussions in terms of what episode they spoil through, and remember, NO FUTURE INFO. Not commercial spoilers, not production spoilers, NADA!

    We're going to rewatch and do a live-chat tomorrow at 11pm EST, so please, join us then! In the meantime, what did you think of William?

    EDIT: I'd like to experiment with moving the chat off the wiki and onto IRC. Tomorrow night we're going to try using the #haven channel on rizon. Join using the webclient here. Or if you have an IRC client: connect to irc.rizon.net using ports 6660-6670 and 7000 for standard connections or 6697/9999 for SSL connections and join the #haven channel.

    EDIT2: The #Haven channel is remaining open around the clock. See Haven:Chat for instructions. Having problems? Contact me and I'll troubleshoot you,

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    • proves a theory I've been having. stephan king has alot of stories around towns, and everytime you think it's witches or supernatural it turns out to be aliens messing with people. dreamcatcher, tommyknockers, isomnia, It, under the dome. basically as a series derived from king verse with derry, haven etc in a hellish stephan king verus where different aliens mess with humans and are strangely territorial.(mr. gray didn't want to go to derry) Many of which are somehow travelling from the verse of the dark tower.

      so basically audrey, william, meat head and curly are aliens, as was her previous handler.

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    • William is seeming more and more like a Randal Flagg like character and in some ways, Audrey seems like a Nadine from the Stand.

      Maybe she is being punished for loving and what she did with William many years ago in Haven.  Perhaps the Barn was built to protect her from William and punish her also and that is why Howard didn't want her to start remembering past lives.  

      William stated that none of the Haven-saving Audrey's loved him but the real one did.  He stated how much fun they used to have on that hilltop.  Is he the man she is supposed to love and kill?  In someways, I hope she doesn't remember, but in other ways, I do.  She may need to remember to fight him.

      I don't know if I believe if she is an alien...but maybe.  Agent Howard stated she was very much human.  I just think she has powers that William is interested in or he likes the spark.  Who knows.  He certainly seemed to think that once the Barn was destroyed she would remember her true self.

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    • Fun. That word drove me nuts. It just seemed so....off. That whole bit really felt like it was the writers trying not to give specifics not like the character was trying not to give specifics. Ick.

      William playing the super long-con, as he seems to have been, suggests that Howard may definitely have been protecting Audrey. Maybe he wanted to reveal more but couldn't, so he pushed little things here and there. I always got the feeling that Howard was playing chess. Of course, that could just be that we knew nothing and he gave little enough away to have the appearance of knowing everything. I'm definitely going to start to look at him differently now though.

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    • Oh, yeah...the word "fun" struck a very disharmonic chord.  I really see him more demon like or again Randall Flagg like..in that Randall Flagg characters could take an object and turn it into something else...and he was all about the chaos...

      And Randall is all about destroying the tower which destroys all worlds...still it is a bit early for me to say definitely I am for this theory.

      However, it does seem, that Audrey did indeed love William at one time...unless we are going with the premise that he is lying to her.  But your comments of the Barn being a punishment for the Audrey's sort of fit in line for this theory. 

      Also, did Nathan shooting Agent Howard and destroying the barn...was that the triggering mechanism that allowed William into the barn?  I am thinking that perhaps he was held outside the barn because he had made the statement that the barn had been made for Audrey.

      So many new questions and things to think about now.  Wish Howard were around now to answer.

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    • Darkfairytales623 wrote: However, it does seem, that Audrey did indeed love William at one time...unless we are going with the premise that he is lying to her.  But your comments of the Barn being a punishment for the Audrey's sort of fit in line for this theory. 

      I dunno. Maybe, it's possible. But he's definitely an unreliable narrator. He doesn't even have to be lying to her, he could be lying to himself. He's very creepy and wearing just about every abuse trope ever, so it's totally believable that she didn't love him and its all in his head.

      Also, I'm vacillating on my Barn theory. Yes, it could still be a punishment, but it could also have been a trap for William. By the time we saw him with Lexie, he was definitely trapped. He needed her to open the door so that he could leave. I'm almost positive. So maybe AudSarLuLex designed the Barn or sacrificed herself in order to trap him. Or maybe William isn't a rocker and AudSarLulLex worked with the original Crockers to design the Barn. I know most people have abandoned the William as Crocker theory, but I'm still liking it. There's no reason that the original evil can't be an ordinary man, in fact, that's an incredibly powerful idea. And Duke not being attacked in this episode, like it wasn't even an option? Raising the hairs on my arms. I do also like the theory that Crockers and AudSarLuLex worked together, I mean, the Crocker Trouble is definitely being treated kinder in hindsight. And you could easily argue that they are the two who have sacrificed the most, in different and opposite ways. But Duke being ignored by a big power this week? I dunno, I don't like it.

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    • I love the idea that the Barn was built for Audrey essentially as a containment device for William. That William and Audrey are polar opposites. Audrey is love, hope, sacrifice, and selflessness; William is jealousy, anger, possessiveness, and manipulation. At some point, did Audrey have to sacrifice herself to prevent his choas from a free-for-all? Audrey has to come out of the barn periodically, to "re-charge" on love, so that she is strong enough to keep him contained, but during the brief times she's out there's just enough of a crack to allow people's individual troubles to manifest. Curiously though, the use of the word 'fun' in that bit of dialogue has bothered me and immediately left me with an image of them reigning down terror on the town. Is Audrey a repentent Big Baddy and using her lives to atone for her part in the Great Evil. Love love love this show. So many interesting possibilities. 

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    • Yeah, that word "fun"...how it has struck a chord in everyone. 

      I am wondering if Audrey was a witch and she called a demon...meaning William...perhaps Reverend Flagg came to town...but we all know who he really is. Or just her "spark" drew William to her in the past, that would work as well.  I would hate to think of her loving someone evil, however, everyone can make mistakes...and perhaps she was a good witch...lol

      I am rambling.  I do like the idea that the Barn was built to contain them both and they are polar opposites.  I tend to think that Audrey use to be "bad" because Agent Howard was so adamant that she stop remembering.  I am now reviewing that scene in another light.  Almost like it would be bad if she remembered her "true" self.  However, it is still too soon to really say.  Audrey also asked Agent Howard if she was being punished and he said it could certainly seem that way.  So either she is, or she took this task on to atone...maybe...I don't know.

      As for him being a Crocker, it was interesting that Duke was not interferred with, in fact, has he been interferred with at all since the Tweedle Dum and Tweedle Dee came to town?  I think that he might regret soon that he doesn't have his "trouble".  And I don't know why I say that, I just agree with Dwight, it was a check and balance sort of thing and at least Duke used it wisely.  And if William isn't a Crocker and messes with Duke, no telling what kind of trouble he gives him. 

      This show has just leaped in greatness to me.  Each season is better and better.

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    • Darkfairytales623 wrote: I tend to think that Audrey use to be "bad" because Agent Howard was so adamant that she stop remembering.  I am now reviewing that scene in another light. Almost like it would be bad if she remembered her "true" self.  However, it is still too soon to really say.  Audrey also asked Agent Howard if she was being punished and he said it could certainly seem that way.  So either she is, or she took this task on to atone...maybe...I don't know.

      That's an interesting spin, though honestly, I still think that remembering was normal for AudSarLuLex. Maybe not remembering everything, and maybe just remembering her purpose, but remembering more than Audrey did. Aside from the fact that Lucy remembered, think about the practicality of the situation. How do you get her to go into the Barn of her own free will? Think about Audrey and now imagine how that would have played out if she didn't get any information from other people. Getting info from other people is what told her that she'd had other lives, that she wasn't the real Audrey Parker, and that she had to leave and forget everyone. If Audrey hadn't gotten any outside information she would have been weirded out slightly that she could play the piano without any lessons and she would have wondered about her strange dreams but that's it.

      She wouldn't have travelled to Kick'em Jenny Neck, and she wouldn't have accepted going into the Barn so easily. This Barn system requires that the mysterious woman find out that she isn't who she thinks she is and have time to come to terms with the role she plays. So yes, I think remembering, some remembering was normal, until the Audrey Parker iteration.

      That's why I've always interpreted this line as Howard trying to stop Audrey from remembering whatever it was that Lucy knew. But I've been thinking of Howard less and less like a bad guy recently, so I love this theory. Remembering a small amount was normal until whatever Lucy did. Maybe Lucy remembered all the way back, or was remembering further back than before and Audrey's not remembering isn't a punishment of the Barn/Howard, but the Barn/Howard trying to protect her. From William, from herself.

      As for him being a Crocker, it was interesting that Duke was not interferred with, in fact, has he been interferred with at all since the Tweedle Dum and Tweedle Dee came to town?  I think that he might regret soon that he doesn't have his "trouble".  And I don't know why I say that, I just agree with Dwight, it was a check and balance sort of thing and at least Duke used it wisely.  And if William isn't a Crocker and messes with Duke, no telling what kind of trouble he gives him. 

      Well, Duke did have a dream which injured him. So we can't say he was completely untouched. But he survived, which most people didn't. And sure, Nathan survived too, but his dream was interrupted by Audrey's knock, and it wasn't a homicidal dream to begin with. Duke had a legitimate nightmare where he was facing someone attempting to kill him and he survived. That's....unusual to say the least.

      And yes, I think Duke's missing his Trouble. I think that as soon as Wade died he did. I think that drove a lot of his reaction to Wade's death. I think he was relieved and angry and guilty and also just lost. His Trouble had come to be an enormous part of his identity. It framed how he thought of his family and how he related to his community. It gave him a path forward in a weird way. Yes, he was fighting against this terrible destiny but that gave him a clear path. It's a lot easier to fight for or against something specific. Without his Trouble he's rudderless in a sense, simply floating along whatever way the Troubles happen to blow him. And I think he hates that. I think he hates having that lack of direction and purpose.

      He's also now completely powerless. Sure, he hated his power but it saved lives and he did good with it. Now being unable to interfere or save people if the worst should happen---he's got to feel like the floor dropped from underneath him. And this is also where his guilt kicks in. Every other time he used his Trouble it was to save people. It stopped a terrible thing from happening. And here, all it did was save him from his personal burden. He knows technically that it stopped Wade, but he can't stop playing through all the other ways he could have stopped Wade. So Wade's death takes away his power, his direction and doesn't give Haven a big break, if anything it hurts Haven. So yeah, I think Duke's missing his Trouble.

      Man, they need a therapist so badly. Someone, quick, bring back Claire.

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    • I am so glad that you reminded me about the dream episode...how quickly I forget.  But yeah, he did survive where the others didn't. 

      I am just so excited to see the next episodes and can't believe that this season is almost over.  We still have so much to cover.  Can you just imagine the cliffhanger this time? 

      We should have a contest...what will they leave us hanging with this season...see how close we get...lol

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    • I'm one who never thought of Howard as a bad guy. Always saw him as a neutral figure, doing his job. I'm thinking Audrey is the one who barned herself or at least asked Howard to carry out the process, because she knew how destructive she could be. In last season's finale there was a lot of talk of 'her choices'. I think she chose the 27 year cycle.

      I think each cycle provides the entity with enough information to recharge and then go into the barn. William did say she always has friends in Haven, so I think that combined with Howard's subtle influence always leads to the same outcome = The entity going back into the barn. Howard seems to stay in Haven for at least part of the time the entity is there.

      I did find it interesting that Duke wasn't messed with at all directly. And his line about not feeling free at the end, I think William spells more strife for Duke this season.

      I got a "Hitch" vibe from the spark/shock when they touched. I don't think Audrey is human, I think for a being that didn't care much for humans she ended up developing love and empathy for them, perhaps during her 'fun' times with William.

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    • [That whole bit really felt like it was the writers trying not to give specifics not like the character was trying not to give specifics. Ick.]

      It was similar to the Season 3 finale with Howard. She didn't ask the right questions at all. It's poor writing, they are just saying we're not ready to tell you yet, even though this character whose whole existence is about searching for her identity is finally at a point where she could get some answers. Surely Audrey Parker's cop insticts would ask "Who am I really?" They could always refuse to answer or provide a non answer , but for Audrey not ask is so annoying and unrealistic for me. Let William say "you have to remember yourself or something "

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    • I don't know, speaking from a psychological perspective, at times, you may think you want to know the truth, but you really don't and you run from the truth because it is going to hurt.  If Audrey is responsible for bringing the original troubles to Haven with William...and I am saying if...how that is going to hurt her now...it will truly.  She has spent so many lives helping people with the troubles her honest love of humans, if...she isn't human, I tend to think she is, just with special powers of her own, how does she atone for her "sins".  I think that is why she asked Agent Howard if she was being punished.  I don't know if she is ready to remember.  Even William said, "The Barn is gone, why don't you remember?"

      I think it is easy for us as viewers at times to sit back and say, why does she not just ask the right question, but I have dealt with people with repressed memories and it isn't that easy.  As much as they want to know, the fear can keep it hidden until they are ready.  I don't know if this is the writers motivation, but just my two cents worth.

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    • 197.221.240.231 wrote: [That whole bit really felt like it was the writers trying not to give specifics not like the character was trying not to give specifics. Ick.]

      It was similar to the Season 3 finale with Howard. She didn't ask the right questions at all. It's poor writing, they are just saying we're not ready to tell you yet, even though this character whose whole existence is about searching for her identity is finally at a point where she could get some answers. Surely Audrey Parker's cop insticts would ask "Who am I really?" They could always refuse to answer or provide a non answer , but for Audrey not ask is so annoying and unrealistic for me. Let William say "you have to remember yourself or something "

      The Season 3 finale didn't bug me quite the same way. I mean, yes, I wanted more data but what Audrey was doing and saying was believable. She was suffering from exhaustion, terror, information overload and was completely not in the frame of mind to properly interrogate anyone. She also decided to screw destiny at the 11th hour, so not a lot of planning. She'd spent so much of her last days trying to protect other people that she'd really shut out what was going to happen to here. I also think Darkfairlytales is right, Audrey didn't really want to know. She regularly put her head in the sand and when she did ask and pushback she didn't push far. I mean, that conversation with the Teagues in Sins of the Fathers? She never goes back to them and tries to get more info. She never goes through the Herald archives. I mean, once she has the names, she could go back and do some more digging. If that ring was a wedding ring there should be a marriage announcement or something. But I don't think she wanted to know.

      So it was frustrating, yes, but it didn't wreck my suspension of disbelief. But "William" definitely did, for maybe the first time. I don't think my suspension of disbelief has been actively broken at all before. "Fallout" had a few awkward lines that annoyed me but they were brief and I fell back into the episode pretty easily. But with "William" I had a hard time staying in the episode. The Trouble was too cliche, given very litle depth, the episode was rushed as hell and the whole thing just felt off.

      Also, I'm beginning the dislike the Jennifer/Duke relationship. I thought it was nice at first, especially when they took things slowly but then it revved up quickly. Too quickly. You now have scenes where when something happens Duke looks first to Jennifer. And that feels odd, and unnatural. Because it's not really the first thing, he's turning to Audrey and to Nathan first and watching their reactions and playing a crucial role. But when Jennifer is in the scene, nope he watches and responds to her. We don't see that the rest of the time and it just feels forced. If we saw him turn to them first, and then decide not to react on that but instead to turn to Jennifer, that would work better. But we don't and we're not going to because the writers seem insistent on proving the Jennifer is not a replacement for Audrey. And the way they are handling that is by constantly saying it. Duke has to tell it to her face, Audrey is of course Jennifer's paranoid fear, etc. SO annoying. It doesn't feel like this is what Duke and Jennifer are feeling and saying, it feels like this is what the writers are saying about Duke and Jennifer to us. I'm getting a serious creator's pet vibe off of Jennifer. And the sad part is that I'd like her just fine (and in fact I used to), if I didn't have the writers constantly telling me that I should like her and that she's no Audrey replacement.

      Also, the fact that Audrey and Jennifer avoid each other just seems weird. They're in scenes together and almost never say anything to each other and have never really had a conversation. Even here, where they're the only two people with Barn info, they don't talk with each other, they both just talk at the group. I don't know if the writers are keeping them apart in order to prevent info leakage or what, but it's annoying and it feels forced.

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    • I understand what you are saying.  I think the only thing that Jennifer said to Audrey in the William episode was, "Isn't three enough for you?" or something like that.  And it really took Audrey by surprise.  The fact that these two women haven't met really and talked is unbelievable to me especially as we are coming down to the wire.

      I don't mind the romance with Duke so much.  To be honest, I don't watch the shows anymore for them because they generally irritate me anyway...so I just go with the flow.  Personally, I think Duke needs someone strong...and I don't mind if it is quirky woman, just don't let her be weak.  And yeah, the she had to be so insecure to tell Duke her jealousy of Audrey...please...because, I was like you...I thought they were kind of cute together...let it go slow.

      The only saving grace I am giving it is because Jennifer was so mortified afterwards.  And maybe it is better to get the cat out of the bag.  And hey, Nathan was just a stupid...again...and I am getting tired of that.  But, again, they were under the influence of those stones.  So I will let it go.

      But with only a few more episodes left, I just don't know how they are going to wrap this season up for us in a way leaving us...or me exhilarated and anxious for next year...there is stilll so much to explore and to know.

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    • Yeah but being under the influence of the stones was the problem. The idea that we're presented with is that the stones use a person's worst fear, or something they're really worried about and turn their paranoia on full force.

      And the way it was done with Dwight makes sense. It's a case he's been investigating, that he cares about and is worried about deeply. He already suspected Wade and he thought that Duke wasn't being completely honest. And while he empathises with Duke and his hatred of his Trouble, there's always that little fear of Duke and what his Trouble means. So yeah, I could easily see a paranoia Trouble bringing that out in Dwight.

      But Nathan's big fear being William? Eh, no. Nathan had some irrational jealousy of Duke, but that was more about his problems with Duke than that he was worried someone would take Audrey away from him. So his jealousy of William was just totally out of character. They could have easily done the same thing but had it not be jealousy. Simply distrust and suspicion and thinking William was using her, and that maybe she wasn't telling him everything. After all, Audrey's lied to Nathan a lot and kept info from him. Heck, she just kept her identity a secret from him. So there was some real stuff that could have been explored there, about the secrets they keep and why and the potential it has to all go wrong. But no, they went jealousy. Uggh.

      And Jennifer, well there was some solid stuff there with her fear of insanity. She's been dropped into a crazy world and so that's a totally legitimate fear, one they've discussed before. Had they stuck with fear of insanity, fear of being used, hatred for being used, that would have been some really powerful stuff. Heck, you could have still had the murderous intent towards Audrey, I mean, Jennifer has good reason to resent Audrey and Nathan. They turned her life upside down. If Nathan hadn't shot Howard, the implication is that Jennifer's Trouble would never have been triggered. And if everyone wasn't so obsessed with saving Audrey then Jennifer would never be in screwed up Haven where her life is always in danger. And Audrey still hasn't recognised what Jennifer did for her.

      So there was a tonne of real emotional issues that could have been played with here. Stuff that actually made sense and would provide real character growth. But what Edwards used was trite, cliche stuff that didn't really fit, and that will likely simple be ignored in future episodes. It's character development to drive the plot, pure Deus ex machina. Nathan and Jennifer are given jealousy issues to drive the plot and then those issues will be taken away and never referred to again. SO ANNOYING!

      Jennifer's had very few lines with Audrey. She brought her her clothes in "The New Girl". She was out of town for "Countdown". They didn't share any lines in "Lay Me Down" and she had one delusion filled line addressed to Audrey here. That's really pushing things. If they're avoiding each other fine, but it doesn't seem like they are. And again, I don't mind her insecurities, I do mind which insecurities she's been given. There are legitimate things for her to be insecure about in re Audrey. Duke did love her and the town revolves around her. For a newbie who doesn't really have people in her corner that can be intimidating. She knows that if push comes to shove and she and Audrey end up on opposite sides, no one will chose her side. That's intimidating. Then of course, they also have a weird mystical connection and could hear the other person. That would give me some pause. But NONE of this really fertile ground is being explored and instead their going with the cliche route of romantic rival, only not setting up an actually rivalry.

      Season 4 is the first time I've been really annoyed at the writers and I hope it's just little bumps and bruises as they adjust. On the whole, it's been really impressive, but it's the little things that have made Haven such a good show. The care and attention to detail, particularly character detail is why I love the show so much. Having relationships go slowly, and believably and have emotions and opinions take time to form, that's Haven's bread and butter. I get that the tone and pacing of the show is changing. But they can still keep everything that made Haven great. I mean, what they've done with Nathan this season has been awesome. Completely changed his character but it's all in character still. Same with Duke. I'm just really annoyed by what they did in "William" and a little tired of the cliches that they're loading onto Jennifer. Hopefully though this is just an issue with one episode.

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    • I am actually with you...just never been quite certain how to put it into words...but EXACTLY...

      Why would Nathan be jealous of William all of a sudden instead of Duke?  Whole shift  reverse in the universe just because of Jennifer?  I don't think so.

      Okay, maybe they have to scramble if this is going to season 5 and it is syndicated and whatever...but I am just floored at the turn around in characters.  And mean all of them, including Vince and Dave...helpful little beavers they are now.  I am not saying it is all bad, it is just so weird seeing everyone acting so differently...maybe it is in response to 24/7 trouble alert. 

      When I was reading what you wrote concerning Jennifer, I thought, why hasn't Audrey sat down with Jennifer and said...who are you?  How did you do that?  My argument is, she is in denial and doesn't want to know...or she is in love?  Or there hasn't been time, but hey, really, how long does it take to say, thanks for getting me out of the Barn that was about to be destroyed.

      I am loving the show, I am just waiting to see where they go with it SingingEarth, but it is a little scary now.  We are at the end...what 3 or 4 episodes only and is that why things are feeling so rushed this season.  Did they feel they had to get it all in this year? 

      And I won't say anything here, but I have seen the previews for this coming episode and it is going to be even weirder.

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    • I don't know. A lot of the changes have been properly built-up and work. I mean, they could have been smoother, but still, most of this stuff is in fact well done.

      Vince and Dave...remember, Dave didn't know Vince was in The Guard. So he's had six months to fight this out with Vince and confront him. And when the Barn exploded and the Troubles stayed, they clearly tried to put their personal differences behind them and work together. They've been pooling information for a while and lot of this seems to have happened off-screen. So there's been six months where they've had to work with others and share more and more info. I think they've been regularly shown that their hoarding information hurts people. They've got to at least partially blame themselves for what happened with Howard. If they'd kept fewer secrets, prepared Audrey better, things might have gone differently.

      Then Nathan comes back and he has an answer and Vince has got to blame himself for letting the Guard run him off. I mean it's been six months and an answer finally presents itself and it's from the man that you almost killed.

      And then more recently, the door opening and Jordan triggering Wade. If they'd shared information properly...

      So yeah, when everything goes completely to hell the change. They start sharing information. And by the last couple of episodes, well whatever's happening now they have zero experience with, so they haven't really had time to think and carefully hoard information from a position of power.

      So that's not really something I have an issue with, I mean, this change in Vince and Dave is something that's been building slowly for a while and they're still cagey as hell.

      So most of the changes have been warranted and are understandable. They've just been a little bumpy I guess. The only real issues I have with Season 4 are with "William" (and I'm fully hoping/assuming that the issues brought up in "William" won't be again) and how Jennifer has been handled. Jennifer just seems out of place. She doesn't interact with anyone except Duke, not really, and we haven't really seen what it is that she moved to Haven for. A lot of women haven't had long arcs. Eleanor and Julia Carr, Jess, Audrey 2 - Jennifer's now outlasted everyone but Claire and Jordan. And yet she has less development and fewer connections than most of these characters. Wade's arc got a tonne of time. And Dwight's also gotten a lot time. So did Jordan in her whole homicidal/suicidal rampage. And William obviously has gotten a lot of time. That's a lot of minor characters to balance and Jennifer has definitely gotten the short end of the stick. She got a little time introducing her to Haven and the Troubles. But once that was done, and she fulfilled her role in bringing Audrey back, she was kinda dumped on the side of the road. She got a few minutes to fall in love with Duke and decide to stay (Why? who knows) and then she had a few more minutes as deus ex machina (howard arranging her adoption?) and then a few minutes to be irrationally jealous. Jennifer is basically around almost entirely to push the plot. She's had literally only a few minutes where we saw her outside of that and it's been all love and jealousy. It's honestly really hard to like her. I don't know her, so how can I possibly? And the little I see her she's acting completely irrationally. So yeah, Jennifer is my big beef for Season 4.

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    • I don't they were really prepared for  Emily Rose's maternity leave  and this resulted in a lot of last minute changes, especially early on in the season. Those first 4 episodes felt odd to me, not the best at all. I don't think they really intended to bring in Wade and Jordan, but they needed some time filler and the quick way they were dispatched shows this.

      There seems to be a lot more plot contrivances this season, it is almost unaccptable that Audrey hasn't talked to Jennifer at all. Even if she didn't want to reveal her true identity, she could have asked a few questions as Lexie.

      I think Jennifer will be the one to help with 'closing the door' , that was probably her main purpose this season and I imagine by the end of the season she and Duke will be 'very much in love" even though they have known each other for such a short time. It would annoy me but not surprise me if the whole season could be 'erased from the collective memory' if the barn reapppears and William and crew are banished returned to their world.

      The show seems to have become a supernatural romance with some mystery and that appeals to a lot of people, but I'm more interested in the mystery.

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    • I was thinking more of the William character and I recalled in the story the Stand where Flagg used to take black stones in one of his hands and close his hand, open it, and an object would appear.  So I don't know if that was just a tribute to Stephen King or if we are to assume that William is like Flagg or is the Reverend Flagg mentioned in the paper in the credits.  Just something to think about.

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    • 197.221.243.22 wrote:
      I think Jennifer will be the one to help with 'closing the door' , that was probably her main purpose this season and I imagine by the end of the season she and Duke will be 'very much in love" even though they have known each other for such a short time. It would annoy me but not surprise me if the whole season could be 'erased from the collective memory' if the barn reapppears and William and crew are banished returned to their world

      If she does, I hope that someone is allowed to remember.  I don't want to go back to square one.

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    • No, they wouldn't. They just wouldn't. Nope, nope,nope,nope.

      Don't mind me, I'm busy burying my head in the sand over here.

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    • Darkfairytales623 wrote: I was thinking more of the William character and I recalled in the story the Stand where Flagg used to take black stones in one of his hands and close his hand, open it, and an object would appear.  So I don't know if that was just a tribute to Stephen King or if we are to assume that William is like Flagg or is the Reverend Flagg mentioned in the paper in the credits.  Just something to think about.

      Ok I can't take it anymore. I've got to start reading some King. A LOT of King.

      /me runs off to create an Amazon Wishlist

      Any suggestions?

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    • SingingEarth wrote:
      No, they wouldn't. They just wouldn't. Nope, nope,nope,nope.

      Don't mind me, I'm busy burying my head in the sand over here.

      lol...you and me both... ;)

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    • SingingEarth wrote:

      Darkfairytales623 wrote: I was thinking more of the William character and I recalled in the story the Stand where Flagg used to take black stones in one of his hands and close his hand, open it, and an object would appear.  So I don't know if that was just a tribute to Stephen King or if we are to assume that William is like Flagg or is the Reverend Flagg mentioned in the paper in the credits.  Just something to think about.

      Ok I can't take it anymore. I've got to start reading some King. A LOT of King.

      /me runs off to create an Amazon Wishlist

      Any suggestions?

      My absolute favorites are The Stand and It...but The Shining, The Talisman, Insomnia, Desolation, Gunslinger series...heck I could go on and on...but those are some of my favorites just off the top of my head.  I have read all of them, but there are some I read again and again.

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    • Okay, lol. You've convinced me, I'm going to create a wishlist just for Haven and Stephen King.

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    • i think william is either randall flagg or his father maerlyn because both are bringers of chaos!!

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    • He definitely has that Randall Flagg kind of feel.

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    • i dont think william is randall flagg because his father maerlyn  created the bends o rainbow to cause chaos and ruin for king arthur. the rainbow had a black orb!! also maerlyn was responsible for people being burnt at the stake in the town of brockrest which is closet human town by the prim!!

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    • Well, that is definitely something to think about...so many theories...and now there are only two more episodes left for the season.

      William does have the same kind of powers though...but I do know that doesn't mean he is Randall Flagg...I just can't wait to see what the writers have dreamed up.

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    • It is amazing how quiet has become here lately.  Perhaps it is the time of year.  Or is it that we have all been blown away with the last few episodes?

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    • This thread is for an episode that's over a month old. It's not archived quite yet because of the delay for when the next few countries get the episode, but unless discussion specific to "William" picks up, it'll be archived soon. There are active threads for each of the episodes since then, and a few other theory ones. Part of the thing is that people are trying to keep their discussions from ranging all over multiple threads.

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    • Makes sense...and thanks.

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    • fghh

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    • Finally Season 5 has been released, was waiting from long time ago.

      Simply enjoyed the first episode over here Haven Season 5 Episode 1

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    • How is William able to control the aether? We found out Mara had it in her body when her father used it to keep her alive. Was that a regular thing? Did someone do the same for William?

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    • A FANDOM user
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